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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/4/2009 10:46:36 PM

kingdomkey101

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what about seasons 3-5 do those need a redub or no

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/7/2009 1:05:45 AM

MagicBox

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Okay, so I finally got some time to go back and start marathoning this again, and I gotta say, the World Tour arc is very hilariously awkward.

It's all just so random. Why do the kids split up the way they do? I've got mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I really like it when characters who don't normally interact often are paired up. For example, I don't think Daisuke and Mimi have ever even had a full conversation, so seeing them splitting up to tackle the crisis in New York is pretty cool. Same with Taichi/Takeru, Koushiro/Hikari, and Yamato/Ken. Random pairings like that are always fun because it strengthens the relationships between the human characters and reminds us all that the show just isn't about the human/Digimon dynamic. You get kind of sick of seeing the same old characters hanging out in their same old groups, and I admire this arc for mixing that up a little.

On the other hand, though, there's just no logic to any of it. Why DO Koushiro and Hikari want to pair up? We never hear the strategy behind these pairings. I understand that there needs to be a new Chosen Child in each pair because only the D-3's can open the Digital Gates, but we're never told why the characters decided to split up in the way they did. Did Takeru and Taichi both just really want to see Paris? Did they draw straws? Did Taichi just want to get to know his future brother-in-law better (Bwah-ha-ha-ha)? I like the idea of splitting the characters up into unlikely pairs, but when there's no build up or reason behind it, it just seems like the audience is missing out on some information.

It's really rushed too. You never really feel the impact of anything that's happening because it's hitting so much stuff at you in so little time. It's horribly paced.

I also just LOVE how the language barrier is handled. The writers could not have possibly done any worse of a job with that, which is just great because it ends up being so hilarious. It's funny enough that everyone in the world speaks fluent Japanese, but I can understand that from a production standpoint because you want the viewers at home to know what the characters are saying. I get that. But it's when they actually address the language barrier in the show that it gets really, REALLY funny.

Oh man, especially the scenes that take place in China. That's just awesome. Okay, so during the first minute or two when the Chinese Chosen Children are fighting the wild Digimon, they're speaking fluent Japanese. They can speak it, the other locals can speak it, the Digimon can speak it, everybody knows Japanese. Hikari and Koushiro arrive and Hikari yells that everybody needs to stop fighting. As soon as Hikari yells this, everybody's Japanese fluency completely vanishes. The Chinese kids are randomly speaking in ENGLISH now and they're all "Japan talk WHOAMG wats goin on?!" Oh, and then it gets better. Koushiro decides to translate, but he doesn't know a word of English, so he tries giving the Chinese kids an explanation in Japanese, and of course, they don't understand what the hell's going on. So Jackie comes in, says "I'll handle this" and then he gives the exact same explanation using the exact same freaking fluent Japanese. And the kids magically understand it just because Jackie's talking. And then, to top it all off, as soon as Jackie gives his little explanation, every Chinese character goes back to being 100% fluent in Japanese. And then Hikari starts speaking in freaking CHINESE, which would have fixed the whole dumb language problem entirely if she had just opened her darn mouth to begin with.

...

... My brain EXPLODED. It was the stupidest, funniest, most awkward thing ever. I loved it.

I'm turning my brain off for the rest of this arc. I just want to laugh.

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/14/2009 6:41:43 PM

Gyt_Kaliba

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I FINALLY am back up and have a day off from work tomorrow, so I'm going to try AGAIN to start where I left off. XD

....future brother in law? You must be confused, that would be Daisuke not Takeru.

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/14/2009 8:16:59 PM

MagicBox

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FINALLY! Somebody else posted! I didn't think I'd ever be able to post my thoughts on the final episodes without double posting. Where the heck did all the Digi-fans run off to?

Okay, the World Tour arc is just bad. I'm glad it's only four episodes long. The America/China episode was laughably awkward as I stated above, the Australia/Paris episode was WEIRD (I'll go further into that next paragraph), and the Russia/Mexico episode was probably the best of the three because they FINALLY get the freaking language barrier thing right. That's pretty bad when you fail to have a story arc make sense until its final episode. On a side note, I had no idea Romi Paku spoke such good Spanish!

Okay, I mentioned above that the Australia episode was weird, and here's why. According to Toei's subtitles, here's a verbatim dialogue exchange between Jou, Iori, and their Digimon from the episode.

"It sure is peaceful."
"What can we do? The Australians don't know the world is in danger."
"But doesn't the dark tower make them wonder?"
"Oh, it doesn't help to complain to Australians."

... What the hell? Okay, so according to them, nobody in Australia watches the news, they hate the rest of the world, and they're dumb. Okay, now I admit, I'm not a history buff by any means, so there might be something that I'm missing, but does Japan hate Australia or something? That seemed incredibly rude, and I'm not even from there. The Paris half of the episode was weird too, simply because it damages Takeru-Hikari shippers like myself. So I'm okay with pretending this episode never happened. That okay with you guys? Awesome.

That's pretty much all my thoughts on the World Tour arc. The only one I enjoyed was the Russia/Mexico part, which pretty much rocked.

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 7:27:08 PM

Gyt_Kaliba

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You finished the series now I'm guessing MB, how is the final fight with Myotismon in it's full subbed glory? That and...is that horrible ending any better at all in the original?

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 8:56:29 PM

MagicBox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gyt_Kaliba

You finished the series now I'm guessing MB, how is the final fight with Myotismon in it's full subbed glory?

Yeah, I'm done. I was going to divide my thoughts up to one arc per post, but since discussion seems to have completely stopped aside from you and me, I guess I'll just go ahead and wrap my opinion up into this one post. Prepare for a long one.

I really like Digimon Adventure 02, but I really do feel it gets worse as it goes on. I thought the Digimon Kaiser arc had perfect pacing, it's got about equal screentime for every character with great character moments, and it's got that great combination of comedy and drama that makes Digimon so great. Once it gets to the Holy Stone arc, it gets more boring to watch since every episode is basically the same, with the only standout stories being the Jogress Evolution debut episodes and the build up to Shakkoumon. The writers always do a great job of teasing the audience with any of Patamon's evolutions, and even though Shakkoumon's debut wasn't as impactful as HolyAngemon's in Adventure 01, it was still handled very well.

So the first half of the series is great, the third quarter is flawed but okay, but the final quarter is probably the worst part of 02, at least for me.

Okay, so let's break this up by the story arcs. The writers had the Digimon Kaiser arc span 25 episodes, exactly half the series. The next twelve episodes are dedicated to Archnemon and Mummymon's scheme to destroy the Holy Stones with the Dark Tower Digimon. Episodes 38-42 cover the World Tour arc, episodes 43-45 cover the fight with the Demon Corps, and episodes 46-50 cover Oikawa's rise to power. That's a total of three major story arcs in the final thirteen episodes, so you can probably already tell I'm going to be complaining about pacing problems.

I already mentioned why I dislike the World Tour arc (it makes no flippin' sense aside from the Mexico story in the final part), but really, the show rarely improves past that point, largely due to the fact that the writers obviously have no idea what direction they want to take the show. It's got bad pacing, plot points are left unexplained, and just like every other instance of Toei writing their own original stories, they just get bored with the concepts that they come up with before they get a chance to execute them properly (which was DBGT's main problem too).

So next is the Demon Corps arc. My main problem with this arc is the fact that it serves no point to the story at all. I can't think of a single thing this arc contributed to the overall plot. Ken being kidnapped was 100% pointless, Demon and his henchmen are honestly just... there, serving no purpose as villains and taking valuable screentime away from Oikawa, who the writers should have been using these episodes to develop, and everybody's right back where they started when the arc ends. Everybody's still looking for Oikawa, the children are still infected with the Dark Spores, and the only real character development was letting the Chosen Children realize that sometimes they need to kill evil Digimon, which they seemed to have no problem doing back in the first series. They don't even give this part of the story any closure, which is probably the worst thing. They don't even kill Demon; they just send him to the False World and forget about him. That's such a cop-out. My main problem with this series is that every single queston about the False World and the Dark Ocean is left unanswered. What was the point?

Then there's the final arc covering Oikawa's time as the main villain. The first two episodes covering BlackWarGreymon's return are fine because we pretty much need that to give the character closure. I didn't really enjoy these two episodes because BlackWarGreymon is a really, really boring character (I actually think I felt more sympathetic for BWGmon in the dub, which is weird. I guess sometimes added dialogue can be a good thing.), so I can pretty much take it or leave it. The only thing that baffles me is how Nefertimon, Pegasmon, and Halsemon have all this power and speed, yet the three of them combined can't stop a freaking truck driving on the road. They devote a whole B-plot in one of the episodes to this whole chase scene, and after spending a whole episode trying to stop it, the truck GETS AWAY. Really? It's a truck, restricted by having to drive on winding roads, and three flying Digimon can't catch the thing. On second thought, I really dislike these two episodes as well.

All that's left after that is the final three episodes covering BelialVamdemon replacing Oikawa as the main villain. He literally comes out of nowhere, with no build-up whatsoever (just like Apocalymon in Adventure 01). Other than that, though, this is probably the best part of the final arc. I like the concept of the dream world and I really like how BelialVamdemon tries to use the Chosen Children's hopes and dreams against them, which is a really cool idea. Takeru, Iori, and Ken's dream worlds are handled really well. Of course, the girls' dreams don't really make sense. Was there ever any build-up whatsoever to Miyako being annoyed with her family and dreaming of a world without them? When did Hikari ever say she wanted a world where every human had a Digimon? The core of pretty much all of my problems with the final arc is that too much stuff comes out of nowhere at all.

And then having Daisuke, out of all the characters, be immune to the dream world's affects because he's the one guy who's happy with life and has never wanted anything ever? That's so lame. Daisuke spent most of the series complaining about a ton of things. I can think of a billion dream worlds that kid would have been trapped in. If we go into this completely unbiased, Hikari should have been the one unaffected by the dreams because she really is the only character on the show who's completely content and has never asked for anything for herself. But off course, we can't have that happen because she's not the leader and we MUST have the leader be the one to save anybody. I'm so tired of that cliche, especially if they have to make some characters' personalities do complete 180's just to pull it off.

I'm kind of divided on the concept of having the Digimon evolve into all of their different forms and then fight at the same time. I get that it's a dream world and anything can happen, but I dunno, "all teh Digimonz clone themselvez and shinka togethah!" just seems like a bad fan-fiction to me. But it's a dream world, and the clones do vanish when they leave, so I guess it's okay. I just wish it didn't give off such a fan-fic vibe.

The final thing is BelialVamdemon's death. I've always found the whole "defeat the villain with the power of hopes and dreams" stuff extremely corny, even when I was a kid. It works with Care Bears, but pretty much anywhere else it just results in a facepalm. Everything leading up to that was really cool, though. I like the insert song "Our Digital World" and hearing it paired with the scene of the old and new Chosen Children surrounding BelialVamdemon with their Digimon was pretty darn awesome.

quote:

That and...is that horrible ending any better at all in the original?

Heck no! Takeru and Hikari still aren't married. Ken/Miyako got less build-up than they did and they still got married. It absolutely stinks!

*catches breath*

Okay, I'm tired of typing. Alright, that's my thoughts on the final story arc. My next post will be my feelings on the series as a whole and what I feel the main problems were.

< Message edited by MagicBox -- 7/15/2009 9:12:14 PM >

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 9:12:17 PM

The_Prized_Fighter_Inferno

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See, with everything you've said, that's about the gist of why I like Tamers better than Adventure 02. Aside from it's darker tone (which I like), Tamers feels a lot more cohesive with its storyline. Don't get me wrong, I still like 02, but Tamers just feels all around better to me.

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Post #: 147

RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 9:13:29 PM

Gyt_Kaliba

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I'd have to agree with most of what you said, even things that I though I'd have to disagree with. For example, the part about Daisuke being the one to not be affected by doubts. I always liked that since Daisuke's my favorite character, and it seemed to fit in a way, but now that I think about it....he spends half his time complaining about not being able to just go in and fight how he wants, or that he thinks Takeru is after Hikari, in the first eps. He easily should have been affected by the dreams.

And even though it is corny and campy, I actually like the whole hopes and dreams defeating...er...original Japanese name for MaloMyotismon (what the heck does Malo supposed to imply anyway?) Somehow it just seems to fit with the whole 'if you believe in yourself you can do it!' theme they seemed to be going for there (again, basing this off the dub since I haven't quite made it there in the sub yet).

Guh, and I was hoping the sub would make it a bit better...so...so Yamato and Sora are still together in the sub like I've always heard? That's just so wrong it's not even funny.

...and again, Daisuke x Hikari my friend. Takeru can have....I'unno. The french girl. : P

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 9:18:34 PM

The_Prized_Fighter_Inferno

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Why would they change that Gyt? Yes, Matt and Sora is canon. Yes, it is annoyin, but there is nothing that can be done. As for the whole DaisukexHikarixTakeru triangle, I honestly have no preference.

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Post #: 149

RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 9:28:45 PM

Gyt_Kaliba

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I'd always heard it was inferno, from so many sources that I figured it had to be, but I just wanted to be sure.

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 9:33:43 PM

The_Prized_Fighter_Inferno

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Did you honestly expect it to be any different though?

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 9:43:03 PM

MagicBox

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T_P_F_I, I actually haven't seen all of Tamers, so I can't really judge. I saw pretty much the first half a few years ago, I believe, and then my cable got all switched around and I lost the channel. I'm hoping the other shows get put up online so I can experience the subbed version of those as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gyt_Kaliba

And even though it is corny and campy, I actually like the whole hopes and dreams defeating...er...original Japanese name for MaloMyotismon (what the heck does Malo supposed to imply anyway?) Somehow it just seems to fit with the whole 'if you believe in yourself you can do it!' theme they seemed to be going for there (again, basing this off the dub since I haven't quite made it there in the sub yet).

I'm kind of divided on that too. I totally would have bought it if they were still in the dream world when it happened. If they had been inside the dream world, I wouldn't have had any problem with the kids defeating him with their thoughts. It's just that they exited the dream world already. They were in the Digital World. I didn't see the logic in how the kids' thoughts could have affected BelialVamdemon in a world where dreams don't automatically come true the second you think them.

quote:

...and again, Daisuke x Hikari my friend. Takeru can have....I'unno. The french girl. : P

Yet another reason I hate that dumb World arc. That kiss was a lie!

All joking aside, though, Toei really did seem like they were planning to pair up Takeru and Hikari, which is why I always thought it was so lame that they just abandoned it without addressing it. There's even official artwork that shows them holding hands and leaning up against each other. I never got why they planned it only to drop it for no reason. And I only get annoyed because it's the ONLY shipping I've ever supported in an anime. I actually die a little inside every time I realize I really want these two cartoon characters to hook up. My dignity plummets.

Okay, my NEXT post will cover my thoughts on the series as a whole. Still don't feel like typing an essay yet.

< Message edited by MagicBox -- 7/15/2009 9:45:06 PM >

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 9:49:58 PM

Gyt_Kaliba

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From what I remember, isn't the hole to the Dream World still open though? I always assumed it's power started leaking into the Digital World.

And on top of pairing issues, the thing I hate the most about the end of 02 is EVERYONE getting a Digimon. It's too Pokemon. I didn't mind the seed kids getting them, that was fine. But the entire planet? Nooooooooo!

And yeah, I can't deny there's a lot of evidence for Takeru and Hikari. I just want Daisuke to get his girl in the end is all. : P

I'm amazed at your feelings being that strong towards it though LOL. Don't have the same feelings for Shinichi and Ran?

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 9:52:34 PM

The_Prized_Fighter_Inferno

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Not to mention all of that "Hope cannot exist without Light/vise versa" stuff that Gennai was always saying. Really, that coupling was hinted at since the homecoming arc of the first season, from pretty much the moment Hikari was introduced. I can understand how upset you'd be about it.

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 10:02:23 PM

MagicBox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The_Prized_Fighter_Inferno

Not to mention all of that "Hope cannot exist without Light/vise versa" stuff that Gennai was always saying. Really, that coupling was hinted at since the homecoming arc of the first season, from pretty much the moment Hikari was introduced. I can understand how upset you'd be about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gyt_Kaliba

I'm amazed at your feelings being that strong towards it though LOL.

Agreed on both of your posts. Yeah, I'm pretty ashamed I care about it as much as I do. I mean, I wouldn't say it really upsets me or anything, but it does irk me whenever I sit down to watch that final episode.

Yeah, the hole to the dream world is still open, which might explain it. I never thought about it before. And I do agree about everybody owning a Digimon being silly. Chosen Children my foot...

quote:

Don't have the same feelings for Shinichi and Ran?

Well, like I said, I'm normally not a shipper (which is why I die inside every time I think of Takeru x Hikari), but the couplings in Detective Conan kind of annoy me, aside from Kogoro/Richard x Eri/Eva and Sato x Takagi. I hate it when shows have two characters love each other, they both KNOW that they love each other, and they both want to confess how they feel, but for some reason they're still all "OMG no wai I don't like them gross lol." That's basically Shinichi x Ran and Heiji x Kazuha in a nutshell. It throws all logic out the window and I dislike that. So no, I don't share those feelings for them.

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 10:10:27 PM

Gyt_Kaliba

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I'm not insane about it like a lot of fangirls (not to gender-cast, but fangirls do seem to be worse on shipping than fanboys in general XD), but I support lots of them.

...and having been in that situation myself before, I can say it's not as uncommon as you might think MagicBox. ^_^;;;

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 11:43:58 PM

MagicBox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gyt_Kaliba

...and having been in that situation myself before, I can say it's not as uncommon as you might think MagicBox. ^_^;;;

Ah, understood. My bad then.

If anybody's having trouble with FUNi's streaming, Crunchyroll has the episodes up too. That's where I went to watch the final episodes and it went pretty smoothly.

I was going to talk about my main problems with the series, but there's something else I wanted to touch on. Is anybody else kind of not really feeling the characters after watching the Japanese version? I think my main surprise after watching the whole series has been that characters like Hikari, Iori, and Miyako really don't do anything outside of their Digimon's evolution episodes. Daisuke gets most of his spotlight from being partnered with Ken, and I guess the writers really like Takeru or something because he gets a LOT of screentime for not being one of the new Chosen Children, but after comparing the two versions, a lot of what the other characters did was a result of added dub dialogue.

As much as I dislike the dub for ruining many of the dramatic and serious scenes with jokes, I really think they did a lot for the characters themselves. Take Iori for example. He's completely generic with pretty much no personality whatsoever. Cody, however, actually had a few dub-only fears and character aspects that really strengthened the character. Miyako starts off interesting, but gets less interesting as she's pushed to the sidelines. I don't remember thinking that about Yolei when I saw the series for the first time through the dub. Even Daisuke, as much as I hate to admit it, isn't as quirky and likeable as he was in the dub. Most of my memories of the character are from Davis. Maybe it's because I'm older, but I think the dub actually strengthened some of the new characters a little.

So the dub has an effect on the characters and how I enjoy them, but that's only part of it. I also wanted to talk about the differences in character spotlight between Adventure 01 and Adventure 02. Adventure 01 will always be my favorite Digimon series, and that's largely due to the fact that it really did feature an ensemble cast. Sure, Agumon and Gabumon got to evolve a stage higher than the others, but aside from that, there really wasn't a true "main character" in the series. That's what I like about this series. Everybody was pretty much equal. Take the original Vamdemon/Myotismon arc for instance. Everybody is honestly all over the place. Taichi gets just as much spotlight as Jou, Yamato gets as much spotlight as Mimi, everybody plays an incredibly vital role. All of the characters were well-developed and everybody had surprisingly equal parts to play; that's pretty uncommon to not have a technical main character.

Sadly, that seemed to be the only Digimon series that was ever true for. Every other series has one or two defined protagonists with the rest of the humans being limited to supporting roles. It's hard not to argue that Adventure 02 was all about Daisuke, Ken, and arguably Takeru, while Hikari, Miyako, and Iori were sadly supporting characters after the first half of the show. I could argue that Hikari was never a major character in 02. Heck, same with Iori, now that I think about it. In Tamers, every Chosen Child was tacked on aside from the main three, and Frontier was "The Takuya and Koji Show" from as early as the halfway point. Still haven't seen a minute of Savers. I really do think Adventure 01 was the only show to really get the emsemble cast thing right, and that's a huge factor in my enjoyment of the show. It makes me really appreciate how much of a gem that show really was.

What are you guys' thoughts on this? How do you guys think characters were handled both when comparing different shows and comparing different language versions?

Also, on another note, what episodes are you guys on? I'll probably have a few thoughts on those as well.

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/15/2009 11:55:30 PM

Gyt_Kaliba

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Ha, no prob MB, I wasn't trying to correct you or anything. Just putting it out there that I make as little sense and am as stupid as many of those anime leads when it comes to the romance factor.

I honestly have seen so little of Adventure 01 to even comment, but other than character episodes it still seemed to me to boil down to being about the 'Goggle Boy' and the 'Rival Boy'. Despite my lackluster feelings toward Data Squad/Savers, it did the best on focusing on all the main Chosen IMO, though that's probably only cuz it's painfully obvious from the very beginning that the other background ones are meant as nothing more than fodder anyway.

02 is my favorite in nostalgia only perhaps, when I think about it, much like how DBZ is my favorite anime for nostalgia purposes. I'll have to re-evaluate once I finally get to see all the others all the way through.

LOL, I can so easily tell that you want to keep talking Digi even though you've covered the series in it's entirety now.

I'm still needing to go back and start from the beviled Episode 13 myself. May try tomorrow.

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/16/2009 12:14:38 AM

MagicBox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gyt_Kaliba

I honestly have seen so little of Adventure 01 to even comment, but other than character episodes it still seemed to me to boil down to being about the 'Goggle Boy' and the 'Rival Boy'.

I guess it does usually boil down to that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the first series didn't let the other characters fall to the sidelines like the other shows did. Mimi and Jou were easily the least popular characters of the original cast and they were still getting episodes dedicated to them even in the final arc. I want to say they even played a part in defeating some major enemies, but it's been years since I've seen the show so my memory's probably messing with me. I know they still helped a lot, though.

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LOL, I can so easily tell that you want to keep talking Digi even though you've covered the series in it's entirety now.

I. Love. This. Series.

There are never message board topics made about Digimon on any of the forums I frequent, so I've been keeping my thoughts bottled up for YEARS. I finally lost patience and made a thread on my own. I mean, just look at my posts here, man! They're essays. I could write a thesis on this show.

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I'm still needing to go back and start from the beviled Episode 13 myself. May try tomorrow.

Curses, man! I can't find new things to say if you never make any progress!

EDIT: I went back and edited it into my original post, but I went out and found that image I was referring to, so if any of you guys wanted to see it, here you go: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/digimon/images/0/0a/02FinalePoster.jpg

It confirms Yamato/Sora and Ken/Miyako as well.

< Message edited by MagicBox -- 7/16/2009 12:49:39 AM >

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RE: Digimon Adventure 02 Discussion Thread - 7/16/2009 2:22:55 PM

Gyt_Kaliba

Posts: 7447
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....that poster hints of Koushiro x Mimi as well if you ask me.

I'm gonna try to get to episode 13 later today, if it'll load. XP

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